- Kees Terberg
- 03. 09. 2022 16:402022-09-03 16:40:07
- reagovat
Reakce na L. Hala: I can't agree more, the only difference is greed, you either pay your...
We are diverting from the main subject. I have noting against paying a traveling model and I recall from my days in France that it was often cheaper to fly a model over from the UK for a session than depend on an unreliable model from France. At the time a flight from London to Bordeaux cost less than a train tricket from Paris. We never discussed TPF but we spoke about collaboration. A model would come over to Bordeaux, get paid for participating in a workshop and would collaborate on projects that ran alongside the organized weekends. In Switzerland, France and Austria it has always been normal for a photographer to pay for a model as most models travel for a living. In the Netherlands, a traveling model was also always paid and in France, when I was working in France, I worked commercially with professional models and TFP on non commercial projects. Now that I am a full time amateur, I am happy with my current models. Most of them are traveling models as well and for personal reasons, if I shoot nudes with the intention to exhibit, I paid my models a set fee. None of them ever complained about my offers and I have worked with some mindboggling models who are featured in international publications and can sometimetimes be spotted in the works that are featured in the same exhibitions where I display my work. A recent publication of the Australian Fine Art magazine Angels is proof of that. Three of the featured models in one single publication were Czech. The biggest advantage of a paid session, is that the photographer retains 100% of the rights of the images obtained duringa a session. In case of a TFP session, the rights are shared. The question remains: what is the final objective and who benefits most? Greed is human.
Reakce na L. Hala: I can't agree more, the only difference is greed, you either pay your...
yeah, it always end in the same way. Now we "know" that your are a great model, its really impressive that you were in those countries,great. Your magnificence is far beyond Fotopatracka reach so we fully understand why you have this anonymous and almost empty profile. It's really shame that I can't pay you for....somethingReakce na L. Hala: I can't agree more, the only difference is greed, you either pay your...
so you attacked me, immediatley retreated (blocked me to not check your portfolio for possible gems) and now you agree.....fine, greed is a bitch ;-)
Reakce na jipo: potrefena husa? :-) it is not discussion about nudity, but about MONEY...
I can't agree more, the only difference is greed, you either pay your models for their efforts or you don't ;) and you're right, there aren't many similar countries like this one, I don't remember ever getting TFP offers from Singapore, Germany, Switzerland or Denmark, always for money, but you know what, the fun was never lacking either :))
Anyway, I also know your version of fun... :O
...sometimes I convince one of these young and ambitious photographer to take a picture for free, like my brother's café, my cosmetics for sale or friend's wedding, and it's great fun when it works out ;)
Yeah, greed is simply a bitch :D
Reakce na L. Hala: You're a really funny fellow, preaching here hateful chauvinism like a...
potrefena husa? :-) it is not discussion about nudity, but about MONEY. Or about money for nudity, if you wish. Do you think that models in similar countries are more shy? I don't think so. only greed makes the difference ;-)Reakce na jipo: For me it still works (maybe because I am shooting less than before) b...
You're a really funny fellow, preaching here hateful chauvinism like a radical bible seller but shooting pure porn by yourself :)))
We may have 15x more porn stars than anywhere else but definitely 100x more hobby porn photographers :D
Reakce na Kees Terberg: You are right, LaHala pinpointed the issue perfectly. I am too old fas...
For me it still works (maybe because I am shooting less than before) but I also provided an alternative answer right in my first comment (link to the maps, showing that here are 15x more pornstars than everywhere else except Hungary). You answered that it is low for you. But it is definitely not normal in a developed country. Don't pretend that normal modeling is not deformed by it. There is a czech saying, something about that czech girls are the nicest (in a romantic way), but thats not true. Low morale, easy money, our girls are cheap (well, if you are not a hobbyist :-) You are a foreigner, so a potential money bag. Sad but true. It is really difficult to not meet some pornstar, they are everywhere. You go shopping, oh, there is a pornstar. It is actually funny to randomly find how many models you shoot in past are "stars" now. Is it something to be proud of? well, not really....- Kees Terberg
- 02. 09. 2022 12:142022-09-02 12:14:49
- reagovat
Reakce na The Unique Stereotypes: Hard to say, but Jipo shoots TFP and claims he has no reason to change...
You are right, LaHala pinpointed the issue perfectly. I am too old fashioned and my stye of photogrpahy is no longer interesting for the new generation of models. If I want to work with a model with my current style of photography, I will have to pay more than I am prepared to. If I have nothing new to offer, the old TFP principle no longer applies. Perhaps it is not the modelling world that has gone mad but me. I am just too old fashioned to keep up with the constant changes. I guess that if models are happy with their selfieshots in the bathroom mirror... then who am I to offer them anything more conventional.
- The Unique Stereotypes
- 01. 09. 2022 23:422022-09-01 23:42:07
- reagovat
Reakce na Kees Terberg: " It seems pretty obvious, Kees must be doing something wrong" I wo...
Hard to say, but Jipo shoots TFP and claims he has no reason to change anything, he wrote literally "this works for me well"
I see the benefits in working with models if I can pay them, therefore I never work with TFP models, but I also can say this works for me well ;)
You, on the other hand, are claiming the world has gone mad, which I translate like neither of these two versions are working for you. So where is the snag?
- Kees Terberg
- 01. 09. 2022 10:022022-09-01 10:02:20
- reagovat
Reakce na The Unique Stereotypes: Obviously we both have a fundamentally different approach to photograp...
" It seems pretty obvious, Kees must be doing something wrong" I would like to find out what that "something" is. I am not prepared to pay the rates that new models are charging for their services. I guess that I have no ambition to work with these new models with their modern mentality. A model who writes me to ask if I am prepared to work with her as she likes my work and then informs me that she charges more than I ever earned in my life... that is enough for me to conclude that I am too old fashioned to understand the new way of working with models.
- The Unique Stereotypes
- 31. 08. 2022 22:462022-08-31 22:46:05
- reagovat
Reakce na jipo: oh yes, i like how every amateur is shooting prepared "projects” for t...
Obviously we both have a fundamentally different approach to photography and experience with models also, I could almost say that I see most things you wrote the other way around, but it doesn't really matter, your TFP approach to collabs with models works fine for you, you're happy about it and wouldn't change anything on it. Mine works perfect for me too and I wouldn't change anything about it either. So the good news is, the world hasn't gone mad yet, there is nothing to complain about ;)
It seems pretty obvious, Kees must be doing something wrong :D
Reakce na The Unique Stereotypes: It's simple, TFP collab creates a huge room for various misunderstandi...
oh yes, i like how every amateur is shooting prepared "projects” for the portfolio. I am the simple one, shooting for fun. I have usually very rough idea what to shoot, I do last minute changes of the location etc. Even the genre is usually not defined, and usually changes, it depends how fun it is, without the discussion about the genre dependent rate change :-)I see two major paid model categories. first one, looking for easy money, compensating something wrong in the life. Can be a person who does not perform well in real life easy to handle in a photoshoot? The second one, overexperienced model visible in many porfolios, with a rate based on genre and also counting hours ( another very funny topic :-). Shooting every 2nd day. Can it be fun with her? Maybe, but i bet in general less fun that with girls doing it for fun only. I can tell you a secret, 90% models does not have something like portfolio. Also known face is definitely not advantage for me ( same for tfp). This works for me well, to go shooting without the words like work, porfolio, contract, money etc. Yes, sometimes you are not compatible and it is not that fun, but it is easier to shorten it, but not discuss discount based on performance :-)
- The Unique Stereotypes
- 30. 08. 2022 22:402022-08-30 22:40:24
- reagovat
Reakce na jipo: maybe you can start with the explanation how exactly is beneficial to...
It's simple, TFP collab creates a huge room for various misunderstandings, unfulfilled expectations and the resulting conflicts. There've been endless discussions here on this topic. Compared to all that, collab for money is a pure matter. Who pays determines the task. No unnecessary discussions, no unfulfilled expectations on both sides, a simple connection of interests, she wants money, I want to shoot what's in my head (not what fits in her portfolio), and then, we talk about an absolutely negligible cost compared to the total cost invested in photography, so what's the point ;)
I see very clearly benefits in what you call pseudo commercial nonsense :)) and among other arguments, maybe if you stop looking for values that no longer exist and find values in the existing ones, you'll stop being convinced that the whole world has gone mad and you're the only one sane :D
...your turn ;)
Reakce na The Unique Stereotypes: I'm afraid I need a little more precise explanation :O
maybe you can start with the explanation how exactly is beneficial to change mind and adapt to this pseudo commercial nonsense instead of stay yourself- The Unique Stereotypes
- 30. 08. 2022 14:242022-08-30 14:24:03
- reagovat
Reakce na jipo: "Your conclusion only confirms my experience with this place in genera...
I'm afraid I need a little more precise explanation :O
Reakce na The Unique Stereotypes: Once again, after a long time, an intense debate, but it ends exactly...
"Your conclusion only confirms my experience with this place in general, there are only ultra-conservative photographers left who don't change their minds, no matter what arguments were made, no matter how much the world around them has changed (or, if you prefer, gone mad)."well, exactly opposite. problematic ones are people that change their minds very easily :-) strictly-for-free photographers are more on the radical side, not on the conservative.
- The Unique Stereotypes
- 27. 08. 2022 09:422022-08-27 09:42:14
- reagovat
Reakce na Kees Terberg: I am an experienced amateur and yes, I do use the camera as a tool to...
Once again, after a long time, an intense debate, but it ends exactly where it begins !!
Your conclusion only confirms my experience with this place in general, there are only ultra-conservative photographers left who don't change their minds, no matter what arguments were made, no matter how much the world around them has changed (or, if you prefer, gone mad).
A really curious fossil place. Contemporary thinking photographers has disappeared from here for years.
- Kees Terberg
- 26. 08. 2022 18:522022-08-26 18:52:22
- reagovat
I am an experienced amateur and yes, I do use the camera as a tool to create art, but also as an excuse. I can admire a beautiful woman through the lens and capture magnificent images. If I would stare at a similar woman without a camera or an objective to create art, I would be considered a pervert or a dirty old man. Thankfully my models know me but if they would not, I can see how the camera is a great excuse for anyone.
I must also say that I do not know many amateur photographers who charge professional rates for their services. The same can not be said for todays models. Do I understand them? Sure, for the same reason that a photographer should be paid. Who needs the service, and who is prepared to work with an artist with an objective to create?
TFP is starting to be a thing of the past. I accept that. If there are any TFP models interested in collaborating with me, please feel free to send me a message. All the paid offers will be gracefully declined.
This is not really a discussion or a debate, but more like a rant and venting of my own frustrations. I am wondering if I am the only one with this opinion or if this is something that is also experienced by my fellow colleagues.
For a long time, I only worked TFP. When photography was my profession, my job, my bread and butter, I used to exchange my services as a photographer with the services of a model. My camera gear needed to be paid for as I had a hefty loan outstanding to pay for the equipment and as photography was my only source of income, TFP became a means to work on non-commercial projects. During these sessions, we collaborated on artistic projects with the goal of obtaining images that would suit us both. To date, my best images were obtained through TFP sessions, even with extremely professional models.
Ever since I moved to Prague and put my old paid off equipment back to use to shoot entirely as an amateur, I have met a lot of magnificent girls who use their modeling skills to earn some extra cash. Over my years in the Czech Capital, I have started to pay a set fee for up to 2 hours of fine art nude work. Many of these models have become friends and not all the sessions result in a paid exchange but still, I do not believe that the 2000czk that I offered for a session was a bad rate. The payment became a business transaction that facilitated the use of the obtained images in exhibitions and international publications.
In my search for new faces, purely for the joy of working with light, a nice setting and a beautiful figure, I have come to one rather disturbing conclusion. An amateur photo model charges more than an experienced prostitute. Photo models are not prostitutes but a recent discussion with a pretty young lady who works in the escort industry, resulted in some pretty amazing images. With respect to the young lady, I will not be sharing any of the results on social media. Just to clarify, I was not aware of her profession but the website we used to hook up was more intended for sexual encounters rather than the arrangement of photo sessions. (Tinder)
The starting rate for an escort is around 40E/1000czk per hour. The lady offered any service that I requested and when I asked her to just let me photograph her, rather than use her body for gratifying my sexual fantasy, she was hesitant. We met for a drink and we ended up shooting body details where the photographed parts were difficult to recognize or anatomically place. The photo session was only agreed as she would not be recognized but the resulting images were personal and intimate. (www.adultprague.com)
The conversation that followed was an interesting one. She had friends and colleagues who would also be interested in working on fine art projects and be happy to work with me for a fraction of the agreed rate as long as no reference would be made to their actual profession.
In my inbox on FP I received various responses from models that I had contacted before. The rates that they quoted ranged from 1400czk per hour, with a minimum of 2 hours, to 500usd for a session without open legs. I have no intention to publish a picture book intended for gynecology students and anyone who is familiar with my work will know that I respect my models and never shoot anything that would compromise or degrade them in any way.
The current rates to work with an average model exceed the rates for an average prostitute. We are all shouting that fine art and nudity is not porn. Modeling is not prostitution and respect is essential. I love my models and I have enjoyed working with each and every one of them, but the rates that are currently being asked for by people without any of the grace, elegance or artistic ambitions that I was used to, will make me think twice about working with a paid photo model.
What is your opinion on the current range of "professional" models and the rates that they charge? My time of working with these new "professionals" has come to an end as they do not offer anything inspirational, new or worth their fee. Perhaps I stand alone with this verdict but I had to vent it regardless. Thank you for bearing with me and for having read my thoughts.